tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post4629847453337490008..comments2024-03-12T17:34:02.225-04:00Comments on NT Blog: The Gospel of Jesus’ Wife: How a fake Gospel-Fragment was composed, by Francis WatsonMark Goodacrehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05115370166754797529noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-69762764325282773612012-10-05T04:39:05.703-04:002012-10-05T04:39:05.703-04:00There is a contradiction between two Watson’s sta...There is a contradiction between two Watson’s statements :<br />— « Line 1 of the new gospel fragment opens with the letters ⲉⲓ ⲁⲛ, and King plausibly suggests that ⲉⲓ represents the last two letters of ⲛⲁⲉⲓ, “to me”, which recurs later in the same line. The letters ⲛⲁ will therefore have been found <b>at the end of the preceding line</b>. » ;<br />— « <i>GJW</i> 3-4 (…) While <b>the gap preceding ⲁⲣⲛⲁ</b> in <i>GJW</i> 3 might be filled with the injunctive and pronominal prefixes (ⲙⲁⲣⲉϥ- or ⲙⲁⲣⲉⲥ-) (…) ».<br /><br />A gap on the left side of the fragment, or not ?…Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08426047904476916782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-3797817505735193282012-10-04T09:34:21.044-04:002012-10-04T09:34:21.044-04:00Si vous me permettez d’intervenir ici en français,...Si vous me permettez d’intervenir ici en français, et non dans mon très mauvais anglais…<br /><br />Il y a un point concernant la division en lignes de l’<i>Évangile de Thomas</i> que Francis Watson n’évoque pas dans son analyse de <i>GJS</i> 3-4 – Karen L. King traite précisément de cette “anomalie” : →4 p. 17-18, en se référant aussi à <i>Thomas</i> pour la justifier ! – : l’absence de <b>ϫⲉ</b> après ⲡⲉϫⲉ ⲓ̅ⲥ̅. Ce point n’est peut-être pas très marquant, mais on peut noter que si <i>GJS</i> →2 …<b>ⲡⲉϫⲉ</b> ⲛ̅ⲙⲁⲑⲏⲧⲏⲥ ⲏ̅ⲓ̅ⲥ̅ <b>ϫⲉ</b>… est le calque de <i>GTh</i> 51:18-19 …<b>ⲡⲉϫⲉ</b> ⲥⲓⲙⲱⲛ ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲥ / ⲛⲁⲩ <b>ϫⲉ</b>…, <i>GJS</i> →4 …<b>ⲡⲉϫⲉ</b> ⲓ̅ⲥ̅… est aussi un calque de <i>GTh</i> 51:20 …<b>ⲡⲉϫⲉ</b> ⲓ̅ⲥ̅, en remarquant que le <b>ϫⲉ</b> y est rejeté au début de la ligne 51:21, ce qui peut expliquer son omission par un éventuel faussaire.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08426047904476916782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-90792828842820095622012-09-26T20:10:39.321-04:002012-09-26T20:10:39.321-04:00Sorry, Oli, you and I both goofed. The spelling in...Sorry, Oli, you and I both goofed. The spelling in GTW6 is 'shafene', not 'shafine'. So I should have said that I was unaware of <i>ene</i> (not <i>ine</i>) being a variant of 'eine'. I notice that I also misspelt 'plausibly'. There was so much red underscoring of non-words in the composition window that I didn't check for actual misspellings.Mike Grondinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11488296481232433553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-65585954319701349842012-09-26T16:59:02.316-04:002012-09-26T16:59:02.316-04:00Oli - Thanks for your analysis (and for the use of...Oli - Thanks for your analysis (and for the use of my interlinear in your linked image.) I was initially inclined to entirely agree with you until I recalled that the prefix 'mare', which occurs at the beginning of GTW6, is sometimes used to express negation, as in Th31.2 ('no physician'), 33.2 ('no one'), 47.3 ('no man'), and 76.3 ('no moth ... no worms'). So if it was 'shaf.eine' that was intended, we have to read the line as 'no wicked man brings ...' which is grammatically fine, but differs from the King interpretation. I'm not aware of 'ine' as a variant of 'eine', but the missing iota can certainly be plausbily explained as an error in copying.Mike Grondinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11488296481232433553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-18173004271558609842012-09-25T16:21:57.669-04:002012-09-25T16:21:57.669-04:00It would be nice to hear from Coptic scholars on s...It would be nice to hear from Coptic scholars on shaf.ine as an orthographic variant of shaf.eine. I don't know Coptic, but this looks like a major goof. If the word *is* shaf.eine but spelled without the yota, does the passage make any grammatical or conceptual sense? (It seems like "Let the man who is wicked brings etc." or "Let the man who is wicked does bring etc.") And would this then be a mispelling? On the other hand, if the word *isn't* shaf.eine but means something like "swell up" as King and others have suggested, then we still have a major problem: we have an unlikely chance resemblance to an unrelated word very orthographically similar in a passage that also contains similar verbiage to line 6. Either way, it looks like a major problem.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12822360265826982950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-4092779233717992652012-09-25T14:48:24.665-04:002012-09-25T14:48:24.665-04:00I believe Professor Francis Watson, of Durham Univ...I believe Professor Francis Watson, of Durham University is just like all the fanatic Bishops that got together at Nicaea Council with Constantin and faked the whole religious myth we live under. J Reuben Silverbirdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16214257113588671574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-58594040877119733952012-09-25T07:22:07.561-04:002012-09-25T07:22:07.561-04:00Thanks, Oli. I think you are right about Line 6 -...Thanks, Oli. I think you are right about Line 6 -- well spotted (and nicely illustrated)! <br /><br />On line 7, I agree -- see my post last night.<br /><br />So we now have the entirety of GJW culled from the Gospel of Thomas.<br /><br />Mark Goodacrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05115370166754797529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-26649160387355156922012-09-25T07:12:23.101-04:002012-09-25T07:12:23.101-04:00Also Watson says re line 7,"the first three C...Also Watson says re line 7,"the first three Coptic words derive not from GTh but from Matthew 28.20b, with an adjustment of the pronominal suffix from 'with you' to 'with her' ". But there is no need to resort to Matthew; the relevant phrase occurs in logion 30 (39.4-5), where one just needs to adjust the suffix from 'with him' to 'with her'.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12822360265826982950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-11756197498604385072012-09-25T06:26:00.503-04:002012-09-25T06:26:00.503-04:00I don't know about you, but this clinches it f...I don't know about you, but this clinches it for me (re line 6).<br /><br /><a href="http://i.imgur.com/9DDCJ.jpg" rel="nofollow">link</a><br /><br />I don't think this is comparable to genuine ancient works that utilize GThom material; it's the density of paralleled language in such a short text. Other books had plenty of material that does not parallel language in GThom.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12822360265826982950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-1734721415215848792012-09-24T13:44:38.462-04:002012-09-24T13:44:38.462-04:00Richard Bauckham writes above that "Gathercol...Richard Bauckham writes above that "Gathercole has now suggested tentatively that line 6 reflects GosThomas 45.3." I've been unable to confirm that bit of Gathercolian speculation, but it's surely too flimsy to be seriously considered. The only connection with Th45.3 is the phrase 'evil men', which isn't uniquely Thomasine. Furthermore, what follows ('swell up') isn't in GTh at all, let alone in 45.3.Mike Grondinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11488296481232433553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-79942908484514050052012-09-22T16:21:09.642-04:002012-09-22T16:21:09.642-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mike Zeddieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09405064998204113004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-27879771492726136742012-09-22T16:14:55.402-04:002012-09-22T16:14:55.402-04:00I have to agree that Watson's comments about S...I have to agree that Watson's comments about Secret Mark seem egregious and factually wrong. If he had suggested that a forger of <i>GJW</i> could have been responding to a common <i>misunderstanding</i> of Secret Mark, that might have been accurate. Instead, his description of the content of Secret Mark is simply false. It is a little alarming that he includes <i>Mar Saba Letter</i> III.13-14 in his citation, since those are the very verses of the text that show Watson's reading of the text is wrong.<br /><br />Worse, the Guardian article gets it even more wrong, for there is only one man who visits Jesus in Secret Mark, and he is clothed.<br /><br />As for Watson's argument that the <i>GJW</i> author "compositional procedure" was inspired by Secret Mark, there are any number of forged gospels that draw upon biblical sources both canonical and apocryphal, so Watson's suggestion seems to be of little help here.<br /><br />I have little opinion on the authenticity of the <i>GJW</i> fragment, though the remainder of Watson's analysis seems reasonably sound, at least on first impression. But then, so does McGrath's.Mike Zeddieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09405064998204113004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-24581866012930789672012-09-22T12:10:46.915-04:002012-09-22T12:10:46.915-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stephen Goransonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15300499142977120746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-85464158782013586572012-09-22T12:10:12.266-04:002012-09-22T12:10:12.266-04:00On pages 11 and 12 of the HTR draft that Prof. Kin...On pages 11 and 12 of the HTR draft that Prof. King kindly posted, the paper notes instances where it appears--and the authors had a better view of it than I do--that some papryus bits separated off some time after the inking. The article interprets that as probably evidence that the ms is ancient. But damage to the ms could have occurred--accidentally or intentionally after the inking, but in modern times. Surely we all know examples of ancient texts being further damaged in modern times. The article seems to prefer possibilities that the inking was ancient, when other possibilities can account for the evidence.Stephen Goransonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15300499142977120746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-68682049299938775172012-09-22T05:06:26.036-04:002012-09-22T05:06:26.036-04:00Strictly speaking the Guardian article has another...Strictly speaking the Guardian article has another inaccuracy. It refers to Secret Mark as a papyrus text whereas it is actually a text written on paper.Andrew Criddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10529501480944256402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-87943109868096851262012-09-21T23:22:12.427-04:002012-09-21T23:22:12.427-04:00P. J. Williams: "not part of a codex"? B...P. J. Williams: "not part of a codex"? But it has writing on recto and verso (though one side has very little that remains readable).Tony Burkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07110154933246199562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-36952173185609243132012-09-21T20:18:59.868-04:002012-09-21T20:18:59.868-04:00And of course we have motives for forgery, both id...And of course we have motives for forgery, both ideological and financial, though I wouldn't want to give the motives much weight as an argument.P.J. Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04388225485348300613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-19606622353672474932012-09-21T20:14:12.768-04:002012-09-21T20:14:12.768-04:00I think Watson's analysis is weighty - particu...I think Watson's analysis is weighty - particularly the line break argument. The similarity in spelling between GJW and GTh is also significant. This combines with some other factors to tip the balance, for me today, against authenticity. The probability of modern cutting, the letters which look more painted than written, and the problems of genre. The manuscript is not part of a codex, but also not of one of the genres one finds in one-leaf works.P.J. Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04388225485348300613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-77221303540196978472012-09-21T15:44:48.605-04:002012-09-21T15:44:48.605-04:00It occurs to me we've missed something that Wa...It occurs to me we've missed something that Watson's argument really does demonstrate: that the text of this fragment (whether ancient or modern) was composed in Coptic, not translated from Greek. The Nag Hammadi Gospels and related texts were translated from Greek. So this is at best a late, not an early 'Gnostic" text, dependent on the Coptic version of Thomas. Not, therefore late 2nd century, as Karen King suggests.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10236291721790244010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-39840333117904318332012-09-21T15:16:21.353-04:002012-09-21T15:16:21.353-04:00Thanks for checking that, James. I'm impressed...Thanks for checking that, James. I'm impressed by how easily you did it. (Does that also tell us something about the ease with which someone could forge a Coptic text?) So we might have a modern forger who knew the story of Judas' death ion fragment of Papias, which is not unlikely. It's in all the standard editions of the Apostolic Fathers, and it's quoted, I note, in Simon Gathercole's book on the Gospel of Judas and probably in other accessible sources about Judas which such a forger might well have read. The story of Judas swelling up is so vivid and extraordinary it would stick in anyone's mind. But then (since the Papias fragment is certainly not extant in Coptic), the forger needs to find the rather obscure Coptic word (it seems) for 'swell up.' Bu there is, of course, still the doubt, as Karen King's article makes clear, whether that really is the meaning of the Coptic word.<br />Should the fragment be genuine, then it is interesting that the Papias account does seem to have infected some versions of Acts 1:18 (though not the Coptic), which suggests it was more widely known than one might otherwise think. But it could also be the case that this form of the death of Judas uses a more widespread folk motif that would have been known independently, though the commentators on the Papias fragment offer no references to other occurrences of the motif.<br />But finally, I think we need a bit more linguistic study of line 6 from the Coptic experts, since the meaning does seem at issue. Gathercole has now suggested tentatively that line 6 reflects GosThomas 45.3.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10236291721790244010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-6237490639001210602012-09-21T14:33:57.686-04:002012-09-21T14:33:57.686-04:00As I just posted on my blog in more detail, the Co...As I <a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2012/09/bibleworks-9-and-the-gospel-of-jesus-wife.html" rel="nofollow">just posted on my blog in more detail</a>, the Coptic versions of Acts 1:18 that I was able to check using BibleWorks as well as online are not the source of the wording of line 6 of "The Gospel of Jesus' Wife" in any direct sense, although the possibility of a more general link to that passage seems to me plausible.James F. McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-75063826047393716032012-09-21T14:07:19.458-04:002012-09-21T14:07:19.458-04:00Very good point, Eric.Very good point, Eric.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10236291721790244010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-28848158062083529072012-09-21T13:33:38.713-04:002012-09-21T13:33:38.713-04:00It is also quite "fortunate" that the te...It is also quite "fortunate" that the text contains the proper noun, "Jesus" and not merely a pronoun, "he said, 'my wife.'"<br /><br />If you think about it, the name there may be more significant than <i>tahime</i>. If it were only a pronoun (or the Coptic equivalent morpheme on the verb), we wouldn't be having this discussion.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15491369086705499648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-11169509062792531952012-09-21T12:30:10.924-04:002012-09-21T12:30:10.924-04:00Following my last comment, I ought to clarify the ...Following my last comment, I ought to clarify the sense in which I find Watson's argument convincing. It is of course quite possible that an ancient writer could have produced the text by this process of compilation from the Gospel of Thomas (McGrath is right on that). But what Watson's argument shows is how easy it would have been for a modern forger to produce this text. In my mind that combines with the other reasons for thinking this papyrus text is very suspicious, viz., the "Zeitgeist" and "too good to be true" (see especially Davila). It is just too good to be true that this tiny fragment happens to preserve the words in which Jesus says "my wife" and thereby feeds into all the popular feeling about Jesus and Mary Magdalene that has been swirling around since at least the Da Vinci Code. The massive coverage of this new fragment in the press and on the internet is itself evidence for the "Zeitgeist" and "too good to be true" criteria for inauthenticity. Of course, we're only dealing in improbabilities. History being what it is, extraordinarily improbable coincidences do happen.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10236291721790244010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5759844.post-59074526037435104092012-09-21T11:43:06.123-04:002012-09-21T11:43:06.123-04:00This is very convincing. If we could pin down a Co...This is very convincing. If we could pin down a Coptic source for line 6 that would clinch it.<br /><br />Sadly I don't read Coptic, but might I suggest that Francis check the Coptic of Acts 1:18. Where the Greek has πρηνης ('headlong'), there is evidence of Armenian and Latin versions that presuppose πρησθεις, the word that Papias uses to describe Judas as 'swollen up'. There are very full details, including an argument against some scholars who have argued that πρηνης in Acts 1:18 actually means swollen up, in Kirsopp Lake's essay on the death of Judas in Foakes Jackson and Lake, The Beginning of Christianity, Part I. vol. V.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10236291721790244010noreply@blogger.com